Intro by Josh Bobb, Body by Alison McCreery:
Josh Bobb: Do you ever have those conversations that you want to continue, because the content is SO good? As it turns out, that happened with APA SF recently. After holding the Social Getworking event in July, it started quite a buzz. A popular blogger, Alison McCreery, decided to continue that conversation. What you'll find below is a tremendous amount of knowledge and candid insight into the various players in the professional photography market about social media and how it's affecting their business. Whether you were able to make it to the event in person or not, what lies below is a fantastic addition to that conversation, as well as an extra panelist, Jill Hundenski.
Alison McCreery of POPPhoto Blog (Photographers on Photography): The San Francisco APA held a very successful and well-attended event, Social Getworking, on Thursday, July 21st at Dogpatch Studios. The focus was, of course, on how photographers can integrate social networking into a larger marketing plan. The panel was moderated by photographer and APA board member Josh Bobb and led by Miki Johnson, Online branding coach, who opened with a presentation. A panel Q&A followed with Heather Elder of Heather Elder Represents, photographer and blogger Timothy Archibald and Miki Johnson.
Like all good things, I wish it had lasted longer. Lasting for well over two hours, I still left with more questions than I came with and even mentioned to Miki that I thought it could have been a weekend seminar. This is fairly new ground and there is a lot of knowledge and experience to share and perspectives and approaches to consider.
I suggested a Part 2 that would take place online and be disseminated to a wider audience than those who attended the SF event. All agreed and Miki suggested we invite an art buyer to participate. Heather contacted Jill Hundenski, Art Producer at TeamOne, who agreed and Social Getworking: The Missing Panelist was born. I formulated some questions, but handed the reins over to Heather who led the call and used my questions as a starting point for an incredibly interesting and engaged discussion in which Jill, Heather, Timothy and Miki talked candidly about how art buyers are using social media in their discovery and hiring process, the role of the blog, why photographers needs to learn to write well about their work and the increasing importance of the treatment.
Thank you to the SF APA for allowing us to continue the conversation and for publishing it on the APA blog where it will reach the widest audience.
How often are you looking for new photographers and how do you use social media in your search?
Every week, 50% of our job is to find new talent in addition to producing our work. So we’re constantly getting inundated with emails and invites and Linkedin and Facebook requests. Every single day we’re looking at new work.
It’s a combination of all of those. I actually use Linkedin a lot. There is an art buyer and photo editor forum we all contribute to. We talk with each other and give recommendations and find new work and new photographers. We ask each other who we’ve worked with. If you have a good reputation, we all talk with each other. It becomes a small world.
There’s a lot of sharing information. My way is different from Jason’s way and Lisa’s way. But we all like to share information. I’m big on Linkedin and Facebook and they are bigger on Twitter. Everyone operates a little differently but as a whole, we all use the same resources.
Based on what you just said, at what stage do you bring social media into the equation? When you’re researching or presenting to the client?
It’s definitely not later on—it’s early in the process, during the discovery process. Then it’s based on the work, the presentation, their reputation, and their branding. By the end, we will put together a PDF of the images we like and build a portfolio we try to sell to the client.
What do you value or look for in a blog or in Pinterest, Facebook or Twitter. I know it varies for each one of those. What are the most important aspects you look for when you visit these sites?
JH
For the most part, consistency in the work is pretty big. We understand a photographer can shoot a lot of different things and the quality can be great. We like to go to a specific photographer for a specific project or style. We like to think “that’s the guy who shoots like this.” If the work is all over the board, it’s more work on our end to narrow down some of their images to sell to our client. So consistency is really big.
I actually also like to look at their personal or fine art work. We look at so much commercial work that we get it. We like to see personal or fine art work to see the creativity of the photographer. We understand they are a really good shooter, but what are they thinking? Or what are they doing on the side? What personal project are they working on? It shows us who they are as a person and some of their personality.
Most importantly is that their site is easy to navigate. If there’s too much flash and I can’t get an idea of what the style is, it becomes frustrating and makes me want to move on. The simpler that it is, the better. This is very important. The point is to get the work across and for us to see it as fast as possible.
I would think that the blogs have been increasingly important for you to see the other side of the photographer. If you’ve seen and like their work, the next step in helping you differentiate would be the blog.
JH
Yes, that’s true. The blog shows more personality and what they’re doing on a daily basis and on the side. It gives us more of an understanding of that photographer if we don’t personally know them and is an introduction to who they are.
Would having a great blog sway you in favor of one photographer over the other?
JH
It could if the blog were so amazing that I thought it was awesome. But I wouldn’t say it would steer us away from using a photographer whose site we liked very much.
If all things were equal and both photographers had relevant or appropriate work for your project, could a blog sway you if it had really interesting personal work and helped you get to know a photographer better and differently? Could it be a tie-breaker?
JH
It definitely would be helpful and a strong point, but not a deal breaker.
Does it affect how you present a photographer’s work to the client?
JH
No, because we’re still going to pick out what we want to show to the client. Even if we’re not a fan of the blog or it’s not relevant, if we want to work with that person, we do the filtering process on our end.
So it’s more of a supplemental thing you’ll pull from if it’s relevant or helps you make the case?
JH
Exactly.
What about FB and in what circumstance would you respond to a FB ‘friend’ request or ‘like’ a photography fan page or even follow a photographer on Twitter?
JH
I don’t really proactively ‘like’ them. For the most part, I will say ‘yes’ because I think ‘the more the merrier.’ I’ll try to accept everyone because I don’t think it will hurt me and only be beneficial. I think I’m very liberal in regards to this. I know other art producers who don’t accept anyone. For me, I’m pretty welcoming.
Are you finding that when photographers post something on FB and it shows up in your newsfeed, that their name recognition is stronger with you because they are out there doing this rather than just sending you postcards, emails and calling you?
JH
Probably. Because Facebook is a little more personal than an email promo or even Linkedin which seems more formal.
Are the treatments you are getting reflecting a deeper creative process and is all of this resulting in better work?
JH
Yes. 100%. If we find three photographers we like and we’re about to triple bid, the treatment is just the next step. At least here on the last few projects I’ve worked on, the treatment is huge. It’s a combination because it shows us 1) if the photographer wants the job and 2) how much they really want the job. And the more effort they put into it, it shows us they’re excited about it. And we want them to be excited about it because we want to work with someone who is going to be collaborative. It shows how creatively they’re going to conquer the job. It can be a make it or break it. The creatives will agree with one over the other.
Do you request or require treatments or do you leave it up to the photographer? And are photographers submitting treatments when they’re not requested?
JH
Yes, and it’s a bonus. We don’t require them on all of our projects. If it’s a bigger production we do require them because we need to know for sure how it’s all going to come to life. It’s circumstantial and not necessarily required for all of our projects.
HE
Sometimes we want to do a treatment and there’s not time. Or we want to do a treatment and the photographer is on a shoot. What happens is that he/she tells me what they’re thinking and I shape and write the treatment though I prefer it come from the photographer. They can crank something out very quickly, but it’s not polished or well designed. I’m finding that the treatments are getting more and more designed. I don’t know any way around this except to recognize that the treatment is an important part of the process and build time into the process with your client. Are you noticing a range in the types of treatments you are receiving?
JH
If time is an issue, I would explain this to my creative director and tell them that the photographer didn’t have time because he/she is shooting, but this is what he/she is thinking.
I think we can all work together, especially if my art director really wants to work with that photographer. I would like for it to be collaborative as well. I don’t want reps and photographers to think it stops here and we just take the treatment, but that we steer you along. I don’t know how everyone works. I can only speak for myself.
This is kind of a hard one because I definitely understand time is an issue. I’ve definitely gotten treatments that have been done by the producer or assistant because the photographer has been shooting. But presentation is huge, so it’s a hard question.
I would rather know that it’s not 100% because the photographer is shooting instead of them just sending something over and crossing their fingers and I wonder how much effort they put into it.
If a photographer already has a well-produced blog and Tumblr or Pinterest account, would it make it that much easier to turn around and produce a treatment?
TA
With Tidepool they like us to do a treatment for every single job. The only link I can see is through the blog. I’m writing many times a week and cohesively express what is sometimes a complex idea and sometimes a straightforward idea. As Heather said, there is a sense of urgency with the treatment.
The blog has helped me sharpen my skills at expressing myself in words and that may have allowed the writing of the treatments to flow out easier. But each treatment is different and I don’t see an overlap myself.
HE
We draw from our blog for our treatments. We send our treatments as online links so I refer to blog posts within the treatment. For example, David Martinez wrote a blog post about how much he loved shooting film and had just picked up a film camera for the first time in a long time. A client was looking for someone to shoot film and it was perfect because it lent credibility because he had just written about it. I have packaged up a blog post for clients several times because something that we posted six months ago might be relevant, but if the art buyer or client isn’t looking at past posts, they won’t see it.
Does writing about your photography make you a better photographer?
TA
I think it puts you more in touch with what your intentions are and that may lead to you being a better photographer, but it doesn’t necessarily make you a better photographer. It allows you to collect your thoughts and communicate in words. Not all photographers can communicate in words and that’s why they do so well communicating in images.
I think we’re at a point now though where writing a treatment, a blog and on Facebook are necessary and so having good writing skills is more important. In an inadvertent way it makes you a better photographer.
MJ
I agree and I talk about this a lot. Before you do anything, you need to come up with a core story. It forces you to write down what you’re doing, why you love it and why you’re doing it. I encourage people to condense this down to about three sentences so you can communicate it to people quickly and easily.
Having a story you tell about yourself rather than a ‘brand’ makes it easier to talk about yourself because it’s more like describing a character in a story rather than just talking about yourself.
Humans are storytelling creatures and being able to identify with that story and who the protagonist is allows people to connect with you on the most basic level. And, as a bonus, the press is always looking for good stories, so it makes it easier for you to talk about what you’re doing in terms of publicity.
If you were evaluating a photographer and they had no social media presence or blog, would it affect your consideration? Or if they weren’t very active?
JH
It’s not a dealbreaker, but in this day and age I can’t imagine getting far without them.
HE
Is it right to assume you’re not going to judge them that they don’t have it, however the likelihood of you getting to know them without these tools is more difficult?
JH
Yes, it’s more difficult.
MJ
What is a good versus a bad blog?
JH
That’s a hard one. It is subjective. If I don’t like someone’s project on roadkill, but someone else thinks it’s genius, it becomes subjective when it’s in terms of the subject matter. I can say across the board that if it stays stylistically consistent and it’s not all over the place then it helps us to brand the photographer and understand what they’re passionate about shooting and what their interests are and their style is.
I imagine it would vary by job in terms of how relevant their blog is.
JH
Yes and it might not even be relevant and that doesn’t necessarily matter. If the style is graphic and they’re showing roadkill to show graphic style, then it would be good. Keeping it consistent across the board so I can package them and put a label on them because I want to know who they are.
Is this the end of the printed portfolio? Or is the portfolio presentation changing to reflect the more complete picture of the photographer that social media can offer?
JH
I get this question all the time. I don’t think it’s the end of the printed portfolio. We still appreciate seeing them. I think it’s not going to be as important as it once was. I think the website needs to be the strongest moving forward because we take screen grabs from the photographer’s site that we like and think we can sell to the client and create a PDF from this. So we already don’t need a book to physically take to our client because we’re doing a lot of things electronically, even when presenting to the client.
But there’s something about the quality of a printed book that we appreciate seeing. And I think that we’re always going to need to see it so we’re convinced that the capability is there. However, I don’t think it will become obsolete, but it’s becoming less necessary.
I called in some books recently and one of the photographers no longer had printed books and the rep sent me an iPad. And after we sent it around the agency for awhile, the iPad died and they hadn’t sent a charger. So it’s these things that you don’t consider. And that point we had to go online to look at the work. There are pros and cons to both, but I think the photographer should always have a book. The iPad is a great supplement though, especially for video.
HE
I think the power of the printed book is more important than ever because if you’re actually calling in a book that you’ve gotten through so much online viewing that you’re actually considering the photographer. So not only does your book have to be great but it has to be better than the person you’re next to on the table.
A couple people in our group have redone their portfolios to make them more relevant to how you’re viewing photography now. So rather than a huge book of 50 images, it’s more of a collage of specialties. Because you’ve already looked online and you need to see a tighter story that’s presented in a way that is relevant to how you’re looking for photography now.
I’m finding that these are the books that stand out when we do portfolio shows because they’re different. It’s definitely not dead and it’s not used in the same way anymore, but it’s really important to have a great book because if someone wants to see it, it better shine.
JH
Sometimes our CD or client wants to see the book. A PDF isn’t enough. So it depends on the job and who is working on it and what their requirements are and what caliber of work they’re looking for. It’s a project-by-project basis.
HE
A lot of people are sending you iPads? Isn’t that similar to looking at work online? You probably get to see a greater variety than you see on a website, they can send you more.
JH
About 10% of the time we get iPads. And yes, it is similar to looking at work online. And they can send more and we can flip through the different categories easily. It’s set up very simplistically which makes it easier for us. However, at the same time, when we’re calling in a book there’s a reason we’re calling in a book.
What if someone is not comfortable enough with their writing to have a big social media presence?
HE
There are so many outlets that you don’t have to do all of them, just the ones you’re most comfortable with. I’ll repeat something Timothy said on the panel that I think rang true with so many photographers because I heard them all repeating it.
If it feels like work, you shouldn’t be doing it. It should come easily and be a natural extension of your creativity.
TA
In retrospect that was too simplistic of an answer. I think Heather you made a conscious effort when you launched your blog. It was work and it didn’t just flow out of you. You thought about what you wanted to present on your blog and saw it as an investment in your company.
HE
Yes, although I like it. If I didn’t like it, it would be one of those to-do items that would always go to the bottom of the list. And so when I do it and I enjoy it and even though it’s work, I’m still having fun with it.
TA
So you’ve found the thing you are suited for in terms of social media.
HE
Yes, I enjoy sharing relevant information and my voice on the blog and I’m not afraid to promote it via social media.
MJ
What I encourage my clients to do is to start off by thinking about it as work. I give them a background to how to do FB and Twitter and write a blog in a way that is efficient. Through doing that, they’ll usually find one thing that clicks with them that they enjoy. I find that people usually have one thing that they enjoy more than the others.
I think what you were talking about at the APA event is that, if you don’t enjoy it, and it feels like work, you’re doing the wrong thing or trying to do all of them and getting overwhelmed.
MJ
Jill, when you’re seeing all these photographers do you ever get the feeling that all he/she does is talk about themselves? Or because you are looking for work, is this not an issue?
JH
I actually like what you said, Miki, about the story because it makes the photographer more relatable as opposed to ‘here’s my great work and this is who I just worked for’ and ‘look at me, look at me.’ I understand this is what they have to do, but when it becomes more personal it hits more of a soft spot that makes me want to look more.
HE
I can quantify this. When I post photos on my blog along with the story behind those photos, not behind-the-scenes, but what’s the story. Why did Richard shoot the camp girls? Those posts get 20x the hits as regular posts.
JH
When we meet with photographers and discuss the story behind their images, whether we ask or they offer, it’s much more powerful than had they just sat there and we flipped through.
HE
And that goes along with what you say Miki about how social media is the real world. And to act like you do in the real world and tell your story. Wouldn’t it be great if you had the chance to sit next to Jill and tell her that story. But you don’t have that chance, so let’s put that story out there in case Jill wants to read about it. Especially if it’s a powerful project. You obviously don’t want to do that with every photo that you take.
MJ
A quick tip that I tell my clients: It’s fine to share a new project because you’re proud of it, but take a few extra sentences and say why and what you connected with in the story or some funny thing that happened while you were shooting. So it’s not just, here’s this great thing I did, but, here’s this great project I did and this is why it’s important to me.
JH
On that note too, that’s why we love seeing the behind-the-scenes. We know it’s really hard to get to the end product. We want to know what happened and the whole process. I love looking at behind-the-scenes videos and photos, the things that went wrong doing it and the crazy production stories because we can all relate to that.
HE
Do you have clients who are limiting what you share via social media? They might not want you talking about what you’re doing.
JH
We have to get it all approved through our clients so some times they’re willing to show it and some times not. It’s just what their comfort level is. And for the most part, they want to show it too.
HE
Jill, is there anything about social media that is completely annoying and that you’d like to get the word out about? Anything photographers shouldn’t do?
JH
Not necessarily. It’s definitely overwhelming for us too because there are so many avenues and we’re trying to figure out our own system and figure out what works. I like what someone said about finding what avenue works for you. One art buyer might look only at blogs and I might go through Linkedin and someone else may use Twitter. We’re kind of on the same page as you in terms of sorting it out and finding our system. So there’s no right or wrong.
MJ
Would there be an appropriate way for a photographer to ask your preferred place to connect online? Is this something they should be asking?
JH
They could. I don’t withhold or have secrets. I understand what they are trying to do and don’t get bothered. I definitely get inundated with email promos and if I don’t have time I don’t look. I would never hold it against a photographer for approaching me.
MJ
If they’re trying to save you time, then it can only be a good thing.
A big thank you to Jill for all her time and sharing her insights and experience with us and with the industry.
After we let Jill get back to work, a short conversation continued between Timothy, Miki and Heather as a follow-up to a question posed on Heather’s blog about the connection between social media presence and getting work.
TA
The one thing we didn’t talk about at the event, and I don’t know if this is quantifiable, was ‘Is this working and are people getting work from this?’
HE
The bottom line to anything we do comes down to the work. If the work is good and relevant, it comes down to the relevance and power of your work. And even if you have great work and you use social media and it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t mean social media doesn’t work. You need someone objective to look at how you’re using it. There’s no if you do it, it will work.
MJ
I also think that people think, because it’s online, that it’s more quantifiable than other marketing efforts. To a certain degree, you can tell. But do you really know if your mailers are working?
I think with social media, people think they’ve been doing it for six months and they want to get more jobs. But you’re generally just increasing the number of people who know about your work and how often they see it. And you have to trust that.
TA
It is like with all the marketing. At Tidepool we have exhibits, mailings, portfolio shows and you hope you enter the collective consciousness at some point and you hope that you are thought of or hired. This is just one of the many things you have to do.
HE
Unless you do something that becomes viral, it’s like Miki said, that it’s just a way of getting your name out there. Jill said earlier that she has stronger name recognition for people whose blogs she follows and whom she’s friends with on Facebook. If that’s going to help when the mailer comes across their desk or when the email comes in asking for a meeting, then it’s very helpful.
TA
It’s also free now and it’s a way to get someone to think of you five times a week or a month rather than once every three months.
There are also photographers who are incredibly well known who aren’t financially successful and there are others who are financially successful and whom you might not have ever heard of.
HE
That’s what’s so great about our industry. There are no rules and it’s always changing.
Further reading recommended by Miki Johnson:
Stop Selling, Start Connecting
The resume is dead, the bio is king
What is a brand?
“Why” not “What”
Press Releases for Bloggers
Trust Agents (Trust Economies e-Book)